Advice on circumcision (NOT a sexual thread)

[coyotedude]

Have a random question for the group. Somehow I suspect I'll get some strong opinions on this question.... :eek:

When I adopted my son a year and a half ago, I quickly found out (on changing his diaper) that he was not circumcised. He had just turned two at the time; he is (of course) 3 and a half now.

I'm not entirely sure I see a need for him to be circumcised, to be honest, especially now that he's 3. But several people I know have strongly recommended circumcision, primarily for ease of hygiene and cleanliness.

I'd like to know your serious perspectives on this. Is there really a need for circumcision? Do the benefits so far outweigh the pain as to make circumcision a good thing to do for my son? Or am I right to be somewhat reluctant to put him through such a procedure?

Peace

[DiamondDog]

No, there's no need to get him cut.

It's a senseless, barbaric, and an outdated form of genital mutilation that gets touted to parents by doctors under the guise of "cleanliness", "religion", or the myth that it somehow prevents HIV and other STDs better than a latex condom used correctly. There's also a form of vanity that lots of Americans/westerners have where they worry that their boy won't fit in or that he should look like his dad by getting cut.

Personally I think that it should be outlawed which it is in some Scandinavian countries. Westerners seem to be in shock at the female genital mutilation that goes on to girls' vaginas in Africa yet are totally fine with the genital mutilation that goes on in hospitals because it's done by doctors and nurses, which is rather hypocritcal.

There's absolutley NO reason for it and less and less people are opting for it and most of the world's men are intact. Plus based on human evolution and the way the human body has changed since the beginning of mankind, if the foreskin wasn't needed it would have evolved off of the penis, or circumcision would have been prevalent in ALL cultures, which it's not.

If you leave his penis intact he'll be thankful. All of my friends that are cut are angry that they are and are jealous of intact men with foreskin. Also, lots of American/western men are opting to restore their remaining foreskin to regain the nerve damage and sensitivity to their penis that was lost when it was cut. Ever wonder why some cut men are totally dependant on lubes to masturbate with? Now you know why. It was first started in America because it was supposed to prevent masturbation. Dr. John Harvey Kellogg (the same guy that invented Kellog's Corn flakes) was a huge proponent of it.

A human female vagina produces MORE smegma and yeast (which the intact penis thankfully doesn't produce) than an intact penis does. Not that smegma is a bad thing, as it helps keep the male and female reproductive organs bacteria free, and some people don't get a lot or any of it.

As far as cleaning it as an adult goes, it's easy just wash it with soap and water like you would any other area of your body (I'd hope).

[Long Duck Dong]

lol.. to be cut, or not to be cut

I am cut... and i am not pissed off, ....

however, I would not suggest it as a viable thing, UNLESS its authorized by a doc as a medical need...and i am talking about the medical cases of the foreskin becoming infected...or restricting the freedom of the penile head

there are medical conditions that would be avoided by circumcising.... but the risks of the medical conditions, pale in comparision to the effects of a circumcision and the number of men affected by botched circumcisions

circumcision is not just a case of hold and snip..... the doc needs to get it right.... and sadly cutting a young boy at a early age, is not a refined artform
the doc has to quess-estimate how much is actually foreskin
unlike a operation to remove your tonsils or your appendix... there is no real guidelines to how much of a persons genitals is actually foreskin and how much is not.......if adults do genital mutilation to themselves, thats fine, they are adults cutting themselves....but they are also grown adults, with fully developed penises.....

if i was able to upload my own penile pics, of my fully erect penis, you would see just how much of a mistake can be made.....nearly 1/4 quarter of my penis is scarred by circumcision.... and as a teenager, the skin would tear at times...i am blessed with a larger than normal penis..... ...when the circumcision was preformed, the doc removed a large amount of skin....and so what would normally be exposed skin on a male, is scar tissue on me

would I have my son circumcised...??? NO... not cos i am against it... or i think its cruel and nasty...... but simply cos I don't let myself be cut up without a medical viable reason....what sort of parent am i, if I say, yes to somebody doing that to my son

[spartca]

A few very recent studies in Africa indicate that circumcision may in fact reduce transmission of the HIV virus:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/5165118.stm

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2005/07/06/MNGANDJFVK1.DTL&type=printableL

[Mrs.F]

My husband (Flounder) was not "cut" when I met him but due to some problems he was "cut" a couple of yrs. ago. When we had our son (who is now 3) it was a big discussion and we decided to have him "cut". But you are asking about doing this to a 3 yr. old little boy! I'm going to say...leave him alone. There is NO reason to have it done. Sometime's others just need to keep their opinions to themselves. He's 3....for you to do that to him now would just be plain toture...and how to you explain to him why your having it done/had it done. :( Just teach him how to take care of himself and their should not be a problem.

[gh05t]

A resounding NO from my quarter.
He can always decide to have it done if he wants to later, but you cant get it stuck back on!
I have 2 (now grown) boys that were not cut & it's caused no problem at any stage of their lives.

[Herbwoman39]

If I had it to do over again, I would not have my sons circumcised. I would just stress cleanliness. My best friend dated a man who was uncut but did not clean regularly so he gave her yeast infections.

I really feel strongly that circumcision is unnecessary if you teach the boy to clean himself regularly.

[Azrael]

No, there's no need to get him cut.

It's a senseless, barbaric, and an outdated form of genital mutilation that gets touted to parents by doctors under the guise of "cleanliness", "religion", or the myth that it somehow prevents HIV and other STDs better than a latex condom used correctly. There's also a form of vanity that lots of Americans/westerners have where they worry that their boy won't fit in or that he should look like his dad by getting cut.


As far as cleaning it as an adult goes, it's easy just wash it with soap and water like you would any other area of your body (I'd hope).
Exactly. Luckily my parents saw it this way.

[twodelta]

I do not believe in unnecessary surgery, and in most cases, circumcision is unnecesary. I too, have a grown son that was not, and he has had no problems. I was circumsized at the hospital after birth. I protested but nobody listened! - Dave

[meta23]

If you're going to cut nerve endings off the end of his dick to reduce the chance of infection, why not cut his ears off too? I got a nasty ear infection recently...

[TorontoGuy2007]

from what i have heard, circumcism was invented by religious fanatics as a ploy to prevent or deter masturbation.

being uncut means that my penis is very sensitive to the touch, and that is great. i will never get it cut, now that i am an adult, and if i ever have kids, i certainly won't get them cut either..

as far as hygene, as long as the boy pulls the skin back on his penis to clean it whenever he has a bath, there shouldn't be any problems.

[2fer'swife]

For this thread, I'll leave lurk mode for a bit.
My son was circumcised at 1 and 1/2 years old due to a medical need. I wouldn't recommend putting a little guy through it if it didn't happen at birth. Let the child decide to have it done as an adult if he wants it unless it becomes medically necessary. The poor kid was thoroughly miserable, in a great deal of pain and the head looked like a peeled grape. He layed on the couch unmoving for nearly 2 days. For a perpetual motion machine this was dramatic. At three he won't understand why he needs it done and it will be hell for him.

However I did see a story recently that circumcision leads to a lower HIV transmission rate, possibly due to cleanliness?

[Lisa (va)]

At three years of age, unless medically required, there is no need to get it done. If he desires, he can opt for the procedure at a later time.
I did read the two articles attached to the thread; if such a thesis is true then the data will be in long before he is sexually active. But I noticed in the last paragraph that there is still debate as to whether or not it is the operation or the cultural practices that make the difference.

Lisa

hugs n kisses

[Avocado]

If he doesn't get circumcised he'll die of cancer and then of aids in his next life. On a serious note you can guess what my advice would be...

[bigirl_inwv]

I wouldnt recommend it at 3. For all the same reasons that everyone else has stated.

However, statistics do show that women who have sex with uncircumcized men (regardless of cleanliness) have an increased rate of yeast infections and an increased chance of getting cervical cancer.

Even with all that, I say let it be. Teach him to cleanse it properly and let him make the decision for himself when he is an adult.

[menher4464]

I've heard of the yeast infections, but not the cervical cancer thing. Anyway, I'm uncut, however my foresking most always stays pulled back and by looking you would never tell that I'm not cut...But it's loose enough to be pulled up around the head. Guess you could say I have the best of "both worlds"

[canuckotter]

Neither Canadian nor American pediatricians recommend circumcision. There's absolutely no medical need for it except in rare cases. In fact, the recommendations are moving more and more strongly to avoid circumcision, for health reasons -- it may be minor, but it's still surgery, and unnecessary surgery is rarely a good idea.

As for cleanliness... Don't worry about it, and especially don't force the foreskin back to try to clean it -- and that advice comes from my newborn son's doctor. Basically, the foreskin isn't supposed to separate from the head of the penis until a little later in life, at which point the little one should know how to clean himself (like 8 or 10 years old) to a reasonable standard anyway. A lot of the health concerns for uncircumcised men are actually caused by the old advice of peeling the foreskin back early in life, apparently.

I don't have any particular emotional view either way -- I'm cut, my son isn't -- but the medical evidence is pretty strongly in favour of leaving your son uncut unless there's a specific reason to have it snipped.

[meteast chick]

You knew what you were getting into writing this thread, so here is my :2cents: .

My soon to be ex husband is cut, my father, my brother, and every man I have ever been with have been cut. I had both of my boys circumcised at birth, and despite popular opinion, I believe it was the right decision for me and my children at the time and I still do. But, still, we are not talking about a newborn. At 3 years old it is best to wait until he is older and can make the decision himself. He is at an age where he will soon be potty trained, if he isn't already, and to be sure, if he is anything like my boys, he likes to play with the extra appendage between his legs. To leave him with a painful scab in the area for who knows how long (given his age) is unnecessary and in my opinion, unwise.

I heard all the pros when I was looking into it (cleanliness, lower HIV rate, etc etc). To call it barbaric, I hardly think so. The Jews practice it for religious reasons and that is their right. For me it also had to do with the fact that I live in the midwest and along with the before mentioned reasons, it always weighed on me heavily that I didn't want my boys to be 'different' in the locker room.

Basically, it is a very personal decision. I made that decision for my boys, and many would probably say what I did was akin to sadism, but I was assured by my sons pediatrician that my first son slept through the procedure, my youngest actually fell asleep during it , both with only a local anesthetic. Neither of my children cried or even winced when I cleaned it, and the scabs, in both cases, fell off within a week. As an adult I am aware that it is more painful and the healing takes much longer. I would consult a pediatrician with the healing/pain/complications for a toddler.

Good luck to you no matter what your decision,
luv and kisses,
xoxoxoxoxoxox
meteast

[FerociousFeline]

Hello,
Thanks for trusting us in giving you assistance with your decision.
I'm going to speak now like there isn't any alternative to my opinion....(but you know I always speak that way because it's assumed everyone knows I'm speaking my opinion lol ;)

You CAN NOT get the boy cut. Here's why: This has nothing to do with any of the obvious reasons except......I don't know about you, but I have MEMORIES of being 3. If I can remember my experiences at 3 years old, he will too. The significance of this can NOT be underscored enough. You said you adopted the boy. He is bound to have abandonement issues in his lil head SOMEWHERE. At this point, I'm sure he trusts you. If you do this to him, you may undo that critical key componet in your lifelong relationship to this boy. Nuff said?

I don't know about whether I can honestly be an advocate of doing it at birth either, somehow, it seems that to think that mankind knows better than mother nature is not only silly, but tempting her patience. I do know that *I* am cut and *I* have issues of being too desensitized. I think uncut is the way to go.......it protects you from overstimulation, it gives you added protection from chaffing....likely gives you larger diameter....

But yeah, don't cut the boy at this point. He can always have it done on his own later if he really wants it done, but at this late date in the game I'm afraid the only thing you'd wind up really cutting, would be the bonds of trust between you and him.

FF

[coyotedude]

Thank you all for sharing. I really do appreciate it.

To be truthful, I am not comfortable with the idea of my son getting cut, especially at 3 and a half. I guess I just wanted a little affirmation that I was right to be hesitant on this. And you all have certainly provided that!

Thank you also for the ammunition you have provided me. It will come in handy when someone goes off about the need to get my son circumcised...

One thing I should mention: my son has a cleft lip. He had one surgery before the adoption, and his next one will be in a couple years before he starts school. He's already going to be traumatized enough by doctors! One reason I don't want to have him circumcised now is: why put him through more crap than we already have to?

Peace.... coyote

[secret_fantasies]

Hello, I am 25 yrs old circumcised male from Turkey. I was circumcised when I was 10 yrs old. Before Circumcision, there used to be a sedimentation of cotton in the foreskin part of my penis, they used to be sticky with the remaining urine inside the foreskin, and the sweat sometimes. And my urine did not flow perfectly straight cos of my foreskin.
After the circumcision, the problem of cotton and stickiness were gone, and the urine flow was smooth and was in the form of a straight line.
However, since i was so young, I did not know how to roll the foreskin back and clean it regularly against the moist, and cotton-based dirt. It is also possible to roll the foreskin back when urinating. And if I had the chance to go back and decide whether I wanted to be circumcised or not, I would definitely say NO! I would love to feel the touch of my own foreskin. It was a part of my body and manhood, but it was taken without asking me. So, it should be upto your son to make the final decision. this is what I think, since you'll be dealing with his bodily integrity.
Hope you make it right. Be well, PEACE :)

[Catman]

Don't cut him!
The Research that supports male circumcision is highly flawed at best.
Do your own search and see.

[spartca]

I was holding back on this, but what the heck?

I'm not a Jew, but I've been thinking about religious customs lately and there might actually be some wisdom behind some of them.

For example, the Jewish prohibition against pork makes sense if you consider that pigs raised in the ancient world often were carriers for tapeworm or trichinosis. Scientific proof of the dangers of eating incorrectly raised or cooked pork was not available until 1859:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_restrictions_on_the_consumption_of_pork

So I'm wondering if perhaps there isn't some ancient wisdom behind the circumcision thing, that we're only discovering today?

Like the high water mark in a 1000-year flood, things like the HIV virus may only come about every so often, under certain specific conditions. Like for example, massive urban crowding that would give a virus the ability to mutate rapidly enough to become a serious epidemic... Is it possible that the ancient Jews knew something that we don't, like in the case of pork?

Oh, and while I'm not a Jew, I've been told by certain Jews that I am rather "Jew-ish." ;)

[intuit2]

I'm jewish...just had a son last month...and according to my religious tradition, i had him circumsized at 8 days old. I didn't even give it a second thought. The ceremony was amazing...It's above all about bringing a jewish boy into the community...and the circumcision probably has more to do with marking one's difference than it does with any ancient medical wisdom. Circumcision in itself is ironic, since according to Jewish laws, we are not supposed to have any piercing, tattoos or other permanent bodily markings.

By the way, my son cried more when the diaper came off than when he was cut. I have to admit, after having gone through it, if i weren't
Jewish, i don't know if i would have had him circumcised. But, honestly, changing his diaper was probably more traumatic for me than it was for him! The cut healed within 3 days. For anybody thinking about circumcising their sons, i've heard that Mohels (the religious person who performs the circumcision), cut faster, with less pain and leave more skin, so there's no problems with growth.

As for all the rhetoric about "mutilation", decreased pleasure, controlling sexuality, etc., etc., ....all i can say is that i take offense. I understand if someone would make the decision not to circumcise himself or his son...but to take some moral high ground and suggest that cutting the foreskin (which i've lived 40 years very happily without) is the equivalent to female circumcision (which includes cutting out the clitoris and parts of the vulva) is purely ridiculous. I'm not sure what's behind all the rhetoric (I read one person's skewed "research" which goes as far to suggest that circumcision has lead to increased divorce rates). But for those of you who are so extreme in your position on this....please keep your opinions to yourself, or state them in a way that is less offensive to people, who, for whatever reason, decide to circumcise their sons.

[Long Duck Dong]

I am gonna regret this but....

intuit... i can see what you are asking, about the way people post their opinions..... and fair enuf.... we all have the right to agree or disagree

but in regards to a couple of things

in a purely medical sense, the removal of the vulva and the clitoris is regarded as a form of mutilation of the human body... and the same can be applied to the removal of the foreskin

mutilation is the unneeded removal of part of the human body.... circumcision for religious reasoning, is marking the human body to set a difference between people.....also using medical logic...circumcision is the removal of the foreskin to mark a person... and in 99% of cases, circumcision falls under the heading of mutilation

the child has no choice in the matter.... it is in the hands of a parent....and circumcision is a very grey area... in that the adult is deciding the kids future......in the case of my parents, they chose... the circumcision was blotched and I was left scarred... and that has been proven medically... some areas of my penis have NO feeling due to scarring....
and the doctor called it MUTILATION

also, and this is gonna cause a lot of shit, i would say

a opinion is simply a opinion..... the level of offense is perceived in the mind of the reader...
while i don't agree with the wording of all the posts....i need to decide if the posts are offensive or if i am taking offense to the wording.....
to ask others to keep their opinions to themselves, is asking people not to express themselves....and sadly.... this is a forum... and people have a right to express themselves, no matter if we agree with the opinion or the wording or not....

[rayosytruenos]

However, statistics do show that women who have sex with uncircumcized men (regardless of cleanliness) have an increased rate of yeast infections and an increased chance of getting cervical cancer.
I'd love to know where you have found those statistics, mainly when you have mentioned "regardless of cleanliness". I would say that those statistics seem to me to be a mistake, if not misleading or biased, but I would like to read the sources to be more objective.

All the best,

ray

[tink1978]

I have two boys. My oldest was circumcised, his fathers choice, I do not have a penis so I did not make this decision. With that said our youngest was suppose to be but due to the fact that he was 7 weeks early and so little we could not find a pediatrician or surgeon to perform the the operation. He is almost 2 and I have no reason or want to put him through another surgical procedure. Now this is not to say that if he starts to have issues of a medical kind that we will not discuss this further but as long as it is not broke leave it alone.

As for all of the studies and reports about weather to or not to circumcise are all clouded.

I hope this helps in your decision.

Tink :2cents:

[rayosytruenos]

I'm not entirely sure I see a need for him to be circumcised, to be honest, especially now that he's 3. But several people I know have strongly recommended circumcision, primarily for ease of hygiene and cleanliness.

I'd like to know your serious perspectives on this. Is there really a need for circumcision? Do the benefits so far outweigh the pain as to make circumcision a good thing to do for my son? Or am I right to be somewhat reluctant to put him through such a procedure?

Peace Hi, Coyotedude!

I respect, though I do not share if your reasons to have him circumcised are religious.

If your reasons are for him not to feel being different in the locker room, I would say that even if the percentages are not the same by states, it seems that the average of circumcised babies in the USA is 60.1% in 2002. I think it could be even lower now, as more and more people are regretting to be circumcised and prefer their babies not to suffer the procedure and its consequences. So I guess he wouldn't be the only one not circumcised, if you decide to leave his bits untouched.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male_circumcision

Table 1: International circumcision rates

Country--------Year----Neonatal circumcisions (%)
United States----2002-------60.1%
Canada-----------2003-------11.5%
Australia---------2004-------12.7%
New Zealand-----1995------- 0.35%*
United Kingdom --1972------- 0.41%
*Samoans, Tongans and Niueans in New Zealand continue to practice circumcision, but not in public hospitals, to which these data refer.

If your reasons are primarily for ease of hygiene and cleanliness, I would say that if you teach him how to wash it properly, there shouldn't be any problem, and yeah, I think we should be taught how to clean it properly, as we are taught how to eat or go potty.

I had to add too that like most of Spaniards, I'm not circumcised, even if my parents and I thought about it for a while... I had a very tight foreskin, which I didn't pay much attention, as I swam, bathed or had a shower, and I used to just clean what I could reach from trying to retract my foreskin as much as I could. It became a problem when I reached puberty, as my penis grew in size and the foreskin seemed to become even tighter, not a problem when soft, but a real discomfort when my penis went hard. My parents and I consider the issue and they were up for having it done if I decided so. I told them to give me some time to think about it and decided to use other methods... When we are teenagers we have lots of erections a day, and I started to force a bit the foreskin backwards when hard... Those of you that know of a sensitive dickhead can imagine of a dickhead that always has been protected by its foreskin... It was sometimes an almost unbearable pain, but I was more frightened of the pain it could be undergoing the operation and the possible things that could go wrong (I had been operated from a supposedly routinely procedure as it is the extirpation of the appendix and things went wrong... It seems now that I have been stabbed in the abdomen as I have a big and ugly scar). So I kept retracting my foreskin, and it ultimately let my whole dickhead appear, and there was no way back after that. My dickhead is hidden when soft, but appears effortless and painless now when I have an erection. Actually that's one of the methods used to restore the foreskin. The skin is an organ that can be extended and made grow (have you seen that guy that can hold a jug of water on his extended skin from his chest?).

The only reasons I would support strongly would be medical reasons, but not the ones I have heard about, not even those studies claiming that cut guys are less proned to contract HIV. Those studies have been done in a country with a lack of proper education and hygienic standards, so I don't think their results can be extrapolated to other countries with proper education and hygienic standards.

Finally, keep in mind that it's a surgical procedure, and as such, it carries a lot of possible side effects and complications, so it's something that parents should think about too. Extreme complications such as blindness, brain damage or even death can occur!!!

I have pointed out many things to consider in one of my threads with lots of info, links and even pics of some penises which suffered from less than perfect circumcisions... They are not for the squeamish!!!

http://main.bisexual.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1025

In another thread that started as fun, i got serious when people got offended and then I had to clarify other issues... You can see my post number #23 in the following thread

http://main.bisexual.com/forum/showthread.php?t=534

I hope all this info can help you make a decision, although it seems that you have already made your mind up.

All the best,

ray

[rayosytruenos]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male_circumcision

Table 1: International circumcision rates

Country--------Year----Neonatal circumcisions (%)
United States----2002-------60.1%
Canada-----------2003-------11.5%
Australia---------2004-------12.7%
New Zealand-----1995------- 0.35%*
United Kingdom --1972------- 0.41%
*Samoans, Tongans and Niueans in New Zealand continue to practice circumcision, but not in public hospitals, to which these data refer.

After posting, I checked to be sure that the links were still active, and I've seen that the data and the article in wikipedia has been updated and improved. It includes for instance, the position of the British Medical Association in the United Kingdom about circumcision, as recent as June 2006. Also, there is a picture of a "skin bridge", one of the possible negative side effects of circumcision, and I have to add that the table I included before has been also updated as follows (I would read the article too):

Table 1: International circumcision rates

Country-----------Year----Neonatal circumcisions (%)
United States------2003----55.9%*
Canada------------2005----9.2%
Australia-----------2004----10%-20%
New Zealand-------1995----10%-20%**
United Kingdom----1972----0.41%
*The percentage refers to infants born in non-Federal hospitals.
**Samoans, Tongans and Niueans in New Zealand continue to practice circumcision, but not in public hospitals, to which these data refer.

As you can see, in the United States, it seems that the rate of circumcised babies has decreased something in one year, while in Canada, it has decreased in more than 2% in 2 years. I think that the data for New Zealand are mistaken, as I checked the source and it includes Australia and New Zealand as a whole, not as separate data.

All the best,

ray

[Long Duck Dong]

here ya go ray

I can't find the actual 2006 figures for nz.....but these are for the pacific islands...



Islands of origin Total population* Males aged 0-15*
Samoa 115,017 22,974
Tonga 40,716 8,892
Niue 20,148 4,167
Fiji 7,041 1,176
Tokelau 6,204 1,347
Society Islands inc. Tahiti 1,200 213
Total 189,126 38,556
Approx. circumcisions/year 2,570
plus an unknown number (<764) of Cook Islanders and perhaps ~27 Tuvaluans

*2001 census

[Long Duck Dong]

i love this guy

David Fergusson of Christchurch School of Medicine and Health Sciences, says he found "substantial benefits" from giving boys the snip - removing their foreskins.

His study, published in the international scientific journal Pediatrics, followed 510 New Zealand males between birth and age 25.

the christchurch school of medicine and health sciences, is actually at otago university....not a actual research center....
and mr david fergusson has a P.hD...school unknown

this is a link to a site that has the case study notes... and case studies for other studies about STI's and circumcision

nip and cut studies (http://www.circumstitions.com/STDs.html)


why i am laughing, is this guys study was waved around as proof that circumcision is good at preventing STI's...lol

stupid thing is being cut or not cut... doesn't change the fact that you can catch STI's...and it depends on the people you sleep with and safe sex, as to ya chances of catching or not catching a STI

[jedinudist]

Have a random question for the group. Somehow I suspect I'll get some strong opinions on this question.... :eek:

When I adopted my son a year and a half ago, I quickly found out (on changing his diaper) that he was not circumcised. He had just turned two at the time; he is (of course) 3 and a half now.

I'm not entirely sure I see a need for him to be circumcised, to be honest, especially now that he's 3. But several people I know have strongly recommended circumcision, primarily for ease of hygiene and cleanliness.

I'd like to know your serious perspectives on this. Is there really a need for circumcision? Do the benefits so far outweigh the pain as to make circumcision a good thing to do for my son? Or am I right to be somewhat reluctant to put him through such a procedure?

Peace

You are absolutely right to not put him through the pain and PERMANENT loss of being circumcised.

Here are some verified web resources u may wish to look at:

http://www.nocirc.org

http://www.cirp.org/

http://www.circumstitions.com/Sexuality.html

http://www.circumstitions.com/

Kudos to you for having the courage to seek a better way. It is his body, thus it must be HIS choice.

Good luck with your son!

[CountryLover]

I think there are a lot of factors that come into play in making this very intimate decision.

You have a child who is old enough to remember the pain of surgery. Unless there is a medical need, such as difficult urination (and that does happen), my opinion is you shouldn't have him circumsized.

I have assisted in quite a few of these minor surgeries. Done properly, they're a VERY minor thing in the grand scheme of things. When done on an infant at birth or shortly thereafter, the pain receptors aren't developed yet so it's more uncomfortable for the infant to be undressed and restrained than actually snipped. A bit of Vaseline, cover it with guaze for a couple days and it's done.

The key is "done properly". As with LDD, I've seen some really horrible circumcisions done by ham-handed idiots. The trouble is, it's such a crap shoot - how do you know if the doctor is skilled in this procedure?

Now as an adult woman, I will say I have truly enjoyed sex, particularly oral sex with an uncut man. :tongue: However, it was never a necessity for the excellent lovers I've had. I really haven't noticed much difference in sensitivity in their reactions to stimulation.

I chose to have my son snipped for several reasons. Mostly because I knew I'd be the one teaching him penis hygiene and at that point in my life I'd had no experience with dealing with a foreskin. I had no clue how I'd make sure he was doing it properly (let me check behind your ears, let's see your fingernails and foreskin now son...). It turned out to be a fortunate decision because he is a special needs child, which wasn't apparent until he was 5 years old. Now I'm SO glad I did.

[jedinudist]

I think there are a lot of factors that come into play in making this very intimate decision.

You have a child who is old enough to remember the pain of surgery. Unless there is a medical need, such as difficult urination (and that does happen), my opinion is you shouldn't have him circumsized.

I have assisted in quite a few of these minor surgeries. Done properly, they're a VERY minor thing in the grand scheme of things. When done on an infant at birth or shortly thereafter, the pain receptors aren't developed yet so it's more uncomfortable for the infant to be undressed and restrained than actually snipped. A bit of Vaseline, cover it with guaze for a couple days and it's done.

The key is "done properly". As with LDD, I've seen some really horrible circumcisions done by ham-handed idiots. The trouble is, it's such a crap shoot - how do you know if the doctor is skilled in this procedure?

Now as an adult woman, I will say I have truly enjoyed sex, particularly oral sex with an uncut man. :tongue: However, it was never a necessity for the excellent lovers I've had. I really haven't noticed much difference in sensitivity in their reactions to stimulation.

I chose to have my son snipped for several reasons. Mostly because I knew I'd be the one teaching him penis hygiene and at that point in my life I'd had no experience with dealing with a foreskin. I had no clue how I'd make sure he was doing it properly (let me check behind your ears, let's see your fingernails and foreskin now son...). It turned out to be a fortunate decision because he is a special needs child, which wasn't apparent until he was 5 years old. Now I'm SO glad I did.

Please check your facts - Infants do feel pain - the receptors are not only developed - they are fully functional. Brain scans of infants undergoing circumcision show the PERMANENT alterations made to the developing brain when hit with that level of pain.

This is what happens during a circumcision, does this look like pain?-

http://www.cirp.org/library/procedure/plastibell/

http://www.intact.ca/vidphil.htm

Here is an excerpt from a pediatric medical journal:

"The pain of circumcision is too severe to be controlled

by a mild analgesic", they concluded, even though most

circumcisions in the United States are done without

pain killers. Babies do experience great and persistent

pain during and after the surgery, based on crying,

increased heart and breathing rates and other measurements,

which also seems to interfere with breastfeeding in some

babies.

Pediatrics, April 4, 1994

Here are some other great links to look at too:

http://www.eskimo.com/%7egburlin/mgm/hampton1.html

http://www.cirp.org/hotlist.html

Circumcision is no more a "minor" surgery than female circumcision (not clitoral removal - hood removal) - look up the physiology of the male foreskin and the female clitoral hood. There are numerous structures and glands in the male foreskin that are found NO WHERE ELSE on the human body. The average foreskin represents approximately 15 square inches of unique, specialized anatomical structure in an adult male - one-third to one-half of the skin covering a normal penis, 240 FEET of nerves, and 10,000 to 20,000 nerve endings - more than in the glans penis itself.

It serves many important anatomical functions, not only for the male but also for his partner!

To surgically alter another human being in any way without their fully informed consent is a gross violation of his or her body.

The only person who should ever consent to such a procedure (which is far, far from being a "snip") is the informed person on who the procedure is to be performed.

For over 100 years, circumcision has been called the "cure" or a "prophylactic measure" for one disease and/or disorder after another. It's his body - it's HIS decision.

[jedinudist]

I wouldnt recommend it at 3. For all the same reasons that everyone else has stated.

However, statistics do show that women who have sex with uncircumcized men (regardless of cleanliness) have an increased rate of yeast infections and an increased chance of getting cervical cancer.

Even with all that, I say let it be. Teach him to cleanse it properly and let him make the decision for himself when he is an adult.


Actually, several key and well respected studies have all proven that foreskins have absolutely nothing to do with the risk of cervical cancer. Nada, zilch, zero. It has to do with exposure to certain variants of HPV and the number of partners a woman has had.

In fact, I have been discussing that very issue with my physician, and it seems that certain variants of the HPV virus is the ONLY cause, and that they believe that they have isolated each one of them (5 so far if i recall correctly) and have developed a vaccine that protects against them. If the next 2 generations play their cards right, this will be the first time in human history that a form of cancer has been completely eliminated via vaccine!

[jedinudist]

A few very recent studies in Africa indicate that circumcision may in fact reduce transmission of the HIV virus:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/5165118.stm

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2005/07/06/MNGANDJFVK1.DTL&type=printableL


Both of these studies have been shown to be flawed and biased. They are being viewed as borderline criminal by many in the medical communities in many nations.

Education and responsibility prevents STD's. Period.

I will find the links and post them, in the meantime consider this...

If circumcision prevents HIV transmission, then why for the longest time did the U.S. have two things... The highest per capita rates of HIV infection AND the highest per capita rates of circumcised men?

[darkeyes]

Interesting little thread... also its been done but no harm in doing it again. Circumcision of infants is a barbabaric practice done for arguable ideological, religious and medical reasons. It is an assault on a child for which, unless there is obvious pressing medical need should never be performed. Any who perform this needless operation should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, and even debarred from their profession. Parents who condone or accept it, should be prosecuted for inciting an assault on a helpless child.

Should, as in the US and even in the UK where there are comparitively few cases, the law allow circumcision of infant males it should be changed to enable all young boys to grow up foreskin intacto, and should they at any time wish to be circumcised then and only then should this occur, thus enabling the law to take its course in prosecutiing those who perform and permit any assault.

I do not care what the reason is, save pressing medical need, removal of the foreskin from a young male is an affront to his dignity and an infringement on his human rights. To argue that it is a medical precaution is a nonsense. If we go down this line, do we then allow parents to insist on having a mastectomy done on their daughters just in case they may develop cancer of the breast or any other problem? Do we allow them to have childrens teeth removed in case they develop toothache? Precautionary treatments should only be undertaken by a consenting adult on his or her self. It is his or her body and belongs to no one else and only he or she has the right to have bits chopped off.

Also I have difficulty with it being done for religious reasons. Admittedly I am not religious, but was raised a christian, and am as tolerant as possible for religious freedoms and practices to be be allowed to continue, but where a child who cannot consent to a procedure such as male circumcision, this too I would ban in just the same way as for so called medical reasons.

Parents are the providers for and protectors of their children, and any that allows an assault such as this on their child should be thoroughly ashamed. I do understand that there are cultural and historical reasons why circumcision occurs. However these attitudes can be changed and should be. Not so long ago in the UK circumcision was also the norm for young boys. In the last half century or so it has become a more rare event and quite rightly. It is patently unjustifiable and should be totally outlawed except in such circumstances I gave earlier.

As an aside, I have never enjoyed sex with a circumcised guy nearly so much as with one who has been left uncut. Most of my friends agree though not all. I have certainly found it different, but that may just be because of what I am used to I cant say, since most british guys are uncircumcised and most of the europeans I have known also. But my pleasure, anyones should not determine what happens to a childs cock. His conscious decision only should be the arbiter and none other!!! And that decision can only be made when he is old enough and legally be able to decide for himself after informed research.

I know several guys who had to be circumcised for proper medical reasons and they certainly think that sex was better before than after the event. But equally I know some men believe the opposite, but most of them believe that the head of the penis was much more sensitive before rather than after circumcision. But as one who is peniley lacking, its not something I can ever say from experience and wouldnt really know. I just think it wrong to inflict on a child a procedure for which there can in the main be no justification!

In ending.. isnt it interesting that in Europe, at least western Europe where there is a tradition of free health care, circumcision rates have plummetted, whereas in the US where hospitals make millions each year from circumcision on babies, rates have held steady and the practice is still the norm. Far be it for me to suggest that it is mercenary money grabbing hospitals which promote circumcision as a precaution! No doubt the actual reasons are more complex, but its something to ponder.

One thing me forgot... try finding some information on foreskin renewal. It can be done, but here Im not promoting it to anyone.. Just I watched a telly programme on circumcision a while back and the renewal methods were absolutely hysterical viewing!!! Had a right hard job keeping me face straight! Poor guys! lol

Said me peace now, so just don get me onto female circumcision..cos there me can really have a wild field day!!!!

[Avocado]

Interesting little thread... also its been done but no harm in doing it again. Circumcision of infants is a barbabaric practice done for arguable ideological, religious and medical reasons. It is an assault on a child for which, unless there is obvious pressing medical need should never be performed. Any who perform this needless operation should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, and even debarred from their profession. Parents who condone or accept it, should be prosecuted for inciting an assault on a helpless child.

Should, as in the US and even in the UK where there are comparitively few cases, the law allow circumcision of infant males it should be changed to enable all young boys to grow up foreskin intacto, and should they at any time wish to be circumcised then and only then should this occur, thus enabling the law to take its course in prosecutiing those who perform and permit any assault.

I do not care what the reason is, save pressing medical need, removal of the foreskin from a young male is an affront to his dignity and an infringement on his human rights. To argue that it is a medical precaution is a nonsense. If we go down this line, do we then allow parents to insist on having a mastectomy done on their daughters just in case they may develop cancer of the breast or any other problem? Do we allow them to have childrens teeth removed in case they develop toothache? Precautionary treatments should only be undertaken by a consenting adult on his or her self. It is his or her body and belongs to no one else and only he or she has the right to have bits chopped off.

Also I have difficulty with it being done for religious reasons. Admittedly I am not religious, but was raised a christian, and am as tolerant as possible for religious freedoms and practices to be be allowed to continue, but where a child who cannot consent to a procedure such as male circumcision, this too I would ban in just the same way as for so called medical reasons.

Parents are the providers for and protectors of their children, and any that allows an assault such as this on their child should be thoroughly ashamed. I do understand that there are cultural and historical reasons why circumcision occurs. However these attitudes can be changed and should be. Not so long ago in the UK circumcision was also the norm for young boys. In the last half century or so it has become a more rare event and quite rightly. It is patently unjustifiable and should be totally outlawed except in such circumstances I gave earlier.

As an aside, I have never enjoyed sex with a circumcised guy nearly so much as with one who has been left uncut. Most of my friends agree though not all. I have certainly found it different, but that may just be because of what I am used to I cant say, since most british guys are uncircumcised and most of the europeans I have known also. But my pleasure, anyones should not determine what happens to a childs cock. His conscious decision only should be the arbiter and none other!!! And that decision can only be made when he is old enough and legally be able to decide for himself after informed research.

I know several guys who had to be circumcised for proper medical reasons and they certainly think that sex was better before than after the event. But equally I know some men believe the opposite, but most of them believe that the head of the penis was much more sensitive before rather than after circumcision. But as one who is peniley lacking, its not something I can ever say from experience and wouldnt really know. I just think it wrong to inflict on a child a procedure for which there can in the main be no justification!

In ending.. isnt it interesting that in Europe, at least western Europe where there is a tradition of free health care, circumcision rates have plummetted, whereas in the US where hospitals make millions each year from circumcision on babies, rates have held steady and the practice is still the norm. Far be it for me to suggest that it is mercenary money grabbing hospitals which promote circumcision as a precaution! No doubt the actual reasons are more complex, but its something to ponder.

One thing me forgot... try finding some information on foreskin renewal. It can be done, but here Im not promoting it to anyone.. Just I watched a telly programme on circumcision a while back and the renewal methods were absolutely hysterical viewing!!! Had a right hard job keeping me face straight! Poor guys! lol

Said me peace now, so just don get me onto female circumcision..cos there me can really have a wild field day!!!!

:bowdown:

[intuit2]

I tried to hold my peace, but cannot.

I circumcised my son and am damn proud of it. I have nothing to be ashamed of and the idea tossed out here that it is a "barbaric practice" in my eyes is insensitive, hyperbolic, and truthfully, shows ignorance and close mindedness to other traditions, cultures and religions. Actually, the rhetoric many of you use in talking about the rights of children when it comes to circumcision reminds me a lot of the rhetoric of the anti-abortionists, using hyperbolic language ("barbaric", "mutilation", "damaging," "traumatic") and fearsome graphics. Let me tell you this: MY children do not need YOUR protecting. I have two children, one female and one male and would do nothing in this world to harm them...and have done everything to ensure their health, happiness and well being. It was hard for me to make the decision to circumcise my son, knowing it would cause him discomfort, but i did so thoroughly understanding what i was doing when i decided to go with a very old custom. There is no scientific reason that Jews circumcise and i will not look for one to rationalize the act....it is about faith...(little that i have)! I do not believe it is an offense to my son to do so and think i have a right as a parent and as a member of my religion to make that decision. As a member of this "community", i should not have to feel guilty or ashamed for doing that.

Despite what Long Dong has to say, i think people should be more aware of what they write when they are writing. If this really is a community, people need to take more responsibility for what they right and how it affects others within that community. The idea of having an open dialogue in a community is NOT simply allowing everybody to have a say, but for people to be sensitive on how their words affect others within the community. I am not offended by the idea that others feel strongly against circumcision, but by the way some of you have articulated that position has been offensive. If members of a group feel that what someone says is offensive, shouldn't other members at least take that into consideration? Isn't that the true meaning of being a community?

Just one more thing...the idea of mutilation is still problematic. If according to the definition mutilation is making something "imperfect", then, from my perspective, male circumcision doesn't fall into that category. In fact, as i see it, the act of circumcision perfects the human body. If you want to go philosophical on the act itself, we could say that it is the first step in the process of becoming a perfected human and a symbolic act that separates us from other animals.

Despite all the facts that people bring to this argument, it is JUST A PIECE OF SKIN. The majority of nerve endings are in the glans and as i've said before...i've never had a problem getting off without it!!!!

If you feel so strongly against circumcision...go out there and tell others...provide alternatives...do whatever you like...but please, try to do it with respect to other's positions on this as well!

[jedinudist]

I tried to hold my peace, but cannot.

I circumcised my son and am damn proud of it. I have nothing to be ashamed of and the idea tossed out here that it is a "barbaric practice" in my eyes is insensitive, hyperbolic, and truthfully, shows ignorance and close mindedness to other traditions, cultures and religions. Actually, the rhetoric many of you use in talking about the rights of children when it comes to circumcision reminds me a lot of the rhetoric of the anti-abortionists, using hyperbolic language ("barbaric", "mutilation", "damaging," "traumatic") and fearsome graphics. Let me tell you this: MY children do not need YOUR protecting. I have two children, one female and one male and would do nothing in this world to harm them...and have done everything to ensure their health, happiness and well being. It was hard for me to make the decision to circumcise my son, knowing it would cause him discomfort, but i did so thoroughly understanding what i was doing when i decided to go with a very old custom. There is no scientific reason that Jews circumcise and i will not look for one to rationalize the act....it is about faith...(little that i have)! I do not believe it is an offense to my son to do so and think i have a right as a parent and as a member of my religion to make that decision. As a member of this "community", i should not have to feel guilty or ashamed for doing that.

Despite what Long Dong has to say, i think people should be more aware of what they write when they are writing. If this really is a community, people need to take more responsibility for what they right and how it affects others within that community. The idea of having an open dialogue in a community is NOT simply allowing everybody to have a say, but for people to be sensitive on how their words affect others within the community. I am not offended by the idea that others feel strongly against circumcision, but by the way some of you have articulated that position has been offensive. If members of a group feel that what someone says is offensive, shouldn't other members at least take that into consideration? Isn't that the true meaning of being a community?

Just one more thing...the idea of mutilation is still problematic. If according to the definition mutilation is making something "imperfect", then, from my perspective, male circumcision doesn't fall into that category. In fact, as i see it, the act of circumcision perfects the human body. If you want to go philosophical on the act itself, we could say that it is the first step in the process of becoming a perfected human and a symbolic act that separates us from other animals.

Despite all the facts that people bring to this argument, it is JUST A PIECE OF SKIN. The majority of nerve endings are in the glans and as i've said before...i've never had a problem getting off without it!!!!

If you feel so strongly against circumcision...go out there and tell others...provide alternatives...do whatever you like...but please, try to do it with respect to other's positions on this as well!

You rant that others should watch what they say yet you parade your ignorance in your rant.

It is NOT just a piece of skin, in fact "foreskin" is a misnomer. It has quite a few unique and vital structures and glans all it's own - ones not found anywhere else on the human body. As for nerves, again - the prepuce has far more nerve endings than the glans.

As for circumcision "perfecting" the human body?? One of the very arguments used by the African peoples to justify circumcising little girls (including removing their clitoris). So what about that? Want to be "sensitive" to their community?? How about the culture of murdering infant girls in china (not an old wives tale - verified by many governmental and international organizations) in china because boys are more valuable, want to be "sensitive" to that community??

So happy to hear that you believe you can improve on the human design by hacking parts of it off. However, you're wrong. It's their for several very good reasons.

[Long Duck Dong]

intuit..... you are entitled to your beliefs as we are to ours.... the mannerism of posting for all members is part of what makes this community, the community it is

freedom of choice to share our opinions and beliefs....

part of the reason i am a counsellor... and the reason why there are foreskin reconstruction options available

[Avocado]

I tried to hold my peace, but cannot.

I circumcised my son and am damn proud of it. I have nothing to be ashamed of and the idea tossed out here that it is a "barbaric practice" in my eyes is insensitive, hyperbolic, and truthfully, shows ignorance and close mindedness to other traditions, cultures and religions. Actually, the rhetoric many of you use in talking about the rights of children when it comes to circumcision reminds me a lot of the rhetoric of the anti-abortionists, using hyperbolic language ("barbaric", "mutilation", "damaging," "traumatic") and fearsome graphics. Let me tell you this: MY children do not need YOUR protecting. I have two children, one female and one male and would do nothing in this world to harm them...and have done everything to ensure their health, happiness and well being. It was hard for me to make the decision to circumcise my son, knowing it would cause him discomfort, but i did so thoroughly understanding what i was doing when i decided to go with a very old custom. There is no scientific reason that Jews circumcise and i will not look for one to rationalize the act....it is about faith...(little that i have)! I do not believe it is an offense to my son to do so and think i have a right as a parent and as a member of my religion to make that decision. As a member of this "community", i should not have to feel guilty or ashamed for doing that.

Despite what Long Dong has to say, i think people should be more aware of what they write when they are writing. If this really is a community, people need to take more responsibility for what they right and how it affects others within that community. The idea of having an open dialogue in a community is NOT simply allowing everybody to have a say, but for people to be sensitive on how their words affect others within the community. I am not offended by the idea that others feel strongly against circumcision, but by the way some of you have articulated that position has been offensive. If members of a group feel that what someone says is offensive, shouldn't other members at least take that into consideration? Isn't that the true meaning of being a community?

Just one more thing...the idea of mutilation is still problematic. If according to the definition mutilation is making something "imperfect", then, from my perspective, male circumcision doesn't fall into that category. In fact, as i see it, the act of circumcision perfects the human body. If you want to go philosophical on the act itself, we could say that it is the first step in the process of becoming a perfected human and a symbolic act that separates us from other animals.

Despite all the facts that people bring to this argument, it is JUST A PIECE OF SKIN. The majority of nerve endings are in the glans and as i've said before...i've never had a problem getting off without it!!!!

If you feel so strongly against circumcision...go out there and tell others...provide alternatives...do whatever you like...but please, try to do it with respect to other's positions on this as well!

I aint saying two wrongs make a right, but I don't find anything said against circumcision any worse than the endless posts on this board condemning those with foreskins. It would also be cut and run, and hypocritical, of me to distance myself from said comments as I have agreed with them. It's not very often I say something like this, but I have more respect for people who get circumcised because of their religion than on health grounds. As David Suchet said in Dracula, "in hundreds of year's time people will mock our science but not our faith". I still feel though, that if it's that important to the child they will get it done when they're old enough to make their own decision. Also, discomfort is not just a piece of skin.

[Long Duck Dong]

lol avacado... i am pro cock cut and uncut....to me there is not reason for me to say cut or un cut guys are better....

actually my greatest stance on circumcision is not cos i am cut ....nor the fact that mine was blotched..... its simply the fact that I was not allowed to choose

the catholics use water....to * mark * a child into their faith.... and as much as me and the catholic faith don't agree with each other.... the child is free to decide as they get older.... if they remain catholic or change to a different belief ... and i respect that type of faith and religious belief

a circumcised child doesn't get that choice

[darkeyes]

I tried to hold my peace, but cannot.

I circumcised my son and am damn proud of it. I have nothing to be ashamed of and the idea tossed out here that it is a "barbaric practice" in my eyes is insensitive, hyperbolic, and truthfully, shows ignorance and close mindedness to other traditions, cultures and religions. Actually, the rhetoric many of you use in talking about the rights of children when it comes to circumcision reminds me a lot of the rhetoric of the anti-abortionists, using hyperbolic language ("barbaric", "mutilation", "damaging," "traumatic") and fearsome graphics. Let me tell you this: MY children do not need YOUR protecting. I have two children, one female and one male and would do nothing in this world to harm them...and have done everything to ensure their health, happiness and well being. It was hard for me to make the decision to circumcise my son, knowing it would cause him discomfort, but i did so thoroughly understanding what i was doing when i decided to go with a very old custom. There is no scientific reason that Jews circumcise and i will not look for one to rationalize the act....it is about faith...(little that i have)! I do not believe it is an offense to my son to do so and think i have a right as a parent and as a member of my religion to make that decision. As a member of this "community", i should not have to feel guilty or ashamed for doing that.

Despite what Long Dong has to say, i think people should be more aware of what they write when they are writing. If this really is a community, people need to take more responsibility for what they right and how it affects others within that community. The idea of having an open dialogue in a community is NOT simply allowing everybody to have a say, but for people to be sensitive on how their words affect others within the community. I am not offended by the idea that others feel strongly against circumcision, but by the way some of you have articulated that position has been offensive. If members of a group feel that what someone says is offensive, shouldn't other members at least take that into consideration? Isn't that the true meaning of being a community?

Just one more thing...the idea of mutilation is still problematic. If according to the definition mutilation is making something "imperfect", then, from my perspective, male circumcision doesn't fall into that category. In fact, as i see it, the act of circumcision perfects the human body. If you want to go philosophical on the act itself, we could say that it is the first step in the process of becoming a perfected human and a symbolic act that separates us from other animals.

Despite all the facts that people bring to this argument, it is JUST A PIECE OF SKIN. The majority of nerve endings are in the glans and as i've said before...i've never had a problem getting off without it!!!!

If you feel so strongly against circumcision...go out there and tell others...provide alternatives...do whatever you like...but please, try to do it with respect to other's positions on this as well!

I have always tried 2 respect what others think, no matter how much I loathe and detest the view..but I do not respect the view of any1 who will mutilate..yes mutilate a young infant child. No human being has the right to forcibly have removed any part of another human beings body without his or her informed consent, save for pressing medical need. This obviously does not and cannot happen in the case of infant male circumcision.

Its an argument which will go on no doubt especially now there are studies purporting to show that it helps prevent men becoming HIV positive, but the evidence is slim here and more research needs 2 be undertaken. However even should this be the case then it is still the right of the individual to make the choice for himself when he is old enough to do so.. Whether circumcision perfects human beings is a very questionable claim not to say somewhat arrogant, but again, will it be the childs view that it does so when he grows up??? Possibly so, maybe not, and thats why the decision should be left to him..no one else.

I always think before I write anything in here, and write because I care and feel strongly just as Intuit seems to do. It is never my intention to offend any individual, but sometimes this can never be avoided..thats what democratic debate is about, and while trying to consider peoples sensitivities we cannot always avoid upsetting them, and nor necessarily should we always do so. A community exists to further ideas and for its members freely to express their views.. not to blindly accept a norm, not to follow blindly into the abyss, for unless we can express our views freely then thats where this community would head.

Without the odd unholy row progress will never be made!

[coyotedude]

Goodness! Let's take a deep breath, everyone, shall we?

I'd like to put some of this into perspective.

You think getting your foreskin snipped at 8 days old is traumatic? Hell, my son was likely out of his birth mother's womb less than 24 hours before he was abandoned by his birth mother and father in an alleyway next to the back door of the local hospital. He had no choice in the surgery he endured sometime in the first 6 months of his life to repair his cleft lip. Then shortly after his 2nd birthday, he was forcibly taken from the only home he'd ever known to live with complete strangers a third of the world away - strangers who spoke differently, acted differently, ate differently, even smelled differently than anyone he'd ever experienced before.

Sorry, but the pain and trauma my son experienced in the first 2+ years of his life trumps what he would have experienced getting circumcised a few days after he was born.

And it's not done yet. My son will have no choice in the surgery he will undergo a year and a half from now to repair his nose. He won't even have any choice in the bone graft that will be done in his jaw when he's 10 or 11.

As a parent, you feel pain when your child hurts. To be blunt, it fucking sucks. So you do your damnedest not to put your child through any more pain than you actually have to for their own good. (And yes, playing God with your child's life is scary as hell.)

Given that our family does not belong to a religious tradition in which circumcision plays a role, are the benefits (real or perceived) enough to justify my son being circumcised now? My own conclusion is no. In fact, I think I would not even have had my son circumcised a few days after birth if he had been my biological son. However, if my son chooses to be circumcised later in life, I will support his decision.

And I do not condemn those parents who have made the choice to circumcise their boys, whether because of religious beliefs or for medical reasons.

My :2cents: ....

Peace

[Avocado]

Goodness! Let's take a deep breath, everyone, shall we?

I'd like to put some of this into perspective.

You think getting your foreskin snipped at 8 days old is traumatic? Hell, my son was likely out of his birth mother's womb less than 24 hours before he was abandoned by his birth mother and father in an alleyway next to the back door of the local hospital. He had no choice in the surgery he endured sometime in the first 6 months of his life to repair his cleft lip. Then shortly after his 2nd birthday, he was forcibly taken from the only home he'd ever known to live with complete strangers a third of the world away - strangers who spoke differently, acted differently, ate differently, even smelled differently than anyone he'd ever experienced before.

Sorry, but the pain and trauma my son experienced in the first 2+ years of his life trumps what he would have experienced getting circumcised a few days after he was born.

And it's not done yet. My son will have no choice in the surgery he will undergo a year and a half from now to repair his nose. He won't even have any choice in the bone graft that will be done in his jaw when he's 10 or 11.

As a parent, you feel pain when your child hurts. To be blunt, it fucking sucks. So you do your damnedest not to put your child through any more pain than you actually have to for their own good. (And yes, playing God with your child's life is scary as hell.)

Given that our family does not belong to a religious tradition in which circumcision plays a role, are the benefits (real or perceived) enough to justify my son being circumcised now? My own conclusion is no. In fact, I think I would not even have had my son circumcised a few days after birth if he had been my biological son. However, if my son chooses to be circumcised later in life, I will support his decision.

And I do not condemn those parents who have made the choice to circumcise their boys, whether because of religious beliefs or for medical reasons.

My :2cents: ....

Peace

You cannot justify something just because something else is worse. If circumcision is important for religious reasons, then if it means that much to the child they'll get it done when they're old enough to make their own decisions. I have more respect for people who get it done for religious reasons than medical. As an atheist I believe there's more chance of a God existing than there is that I'm unhealthy for having a foreskin. There are lies, damn lies and statistics.

[coyotedude]

You cannot justify something just because something else is worse. If circumcision is important for religious reasons, then if it means that much to the child they'll get it done when they're old enough to make their own decisions. I have more respect for people who get it done for religious reasons than medical. As an atheist I believe there's more chance of a God existing than there is that I'm unhealthy for having a foreskin. There are lies, damn lies and statistics.

Ah, the corollary to "two wrongs don't make a right." And a valid point at that. But then, I'm not saying that it's okay to snip my son because he already had surgery as a baby - that's misreading my post.

What I am saying is sometimes we do things to our kids "for their own good" even though it's painful as hell. Sometimes as a parent you have to do that, even though it sucks.

And sometimes as a parent, the answer is not clear cut (tee hee). If circumcision were clearly so beneficial that every boy should have it done - or if circumcision were clearly so evil that doctors who perform it should be shot - I wouldn't have asked the question in the first place.

But it simply isn't the case. As you so eloquently point out, there are lies, damn lies, and statistics. I've seen statistics and studies by both supporters and detractors of circumcision - and I view them all with an appropriately skeptical mind.

As in so much of life, there are pros and there are cons. And a parent has to weigh the pros and the cons to reach a decision - and then hope or pray that the decision was the right one. (Sometimes, it may even be!)

So the question remains: is circumcision truly for the boy's "own good"? Is there enough of a benefit to justify the risks or costs involved?

So far, I haven't seen anything to convince me that there is enough of a benefit, at least for my son under the current circumstances. I'm really hoping I'm right on this.

Frankly, I'm having to rely on another old saying here: if it ain't broke, don't fix it!

Peace

[dans94]

I love these polarizing questions!! They bring out the true ingnorance of humankind. On one hand, if you are a religeous person, God made us in his image and can do no wrong. IF this is true, we have no right to fiddle with his design no matter what religion, culture, or tradition we embrace.

On the other hand, science has stated that circumcision is a healthier way of life. In the good ol' U.S. of A. we have been fortunate enough to bring healthy water to 99% of our households. With very simple methods of hygene, the penis, glans, and foreskin can be kept clean and free of infections. In less fortunate countries this is not so and infection is a very real posibility. My glans got a slight infection when I was a child because I was told that touching it was wrong. I don't blame my parents for being ingnorant because ingnorance is not something we conciously decide to embrace. Still, my foreskin puckered up from the infection to the point that it couldn't be retracted. Pee could barely make its way out. The doctor simply lubed it up as best he could and forceably retracted it. Talk about head cheeze!! He then suggested circumcision but my parents listened to my protests and I was spared. Needless to say, I have kept this area of my personal hygene a top priority ever since and have had no more problems.

If I lived in an area of the globe where clean water is scarce, I'm sure infections of the sort I suffered would be common place. Therefore, the early inhabitants of these areas made up religions, cultures, and traditions to eleviate this problem. It worked!! Sadly, when these people migrate to the US, they bring their trappings with them. Their ignorance and polarized thinking tries to keep their belief systems alive through their children but, with patience, they will be absorbed into OUR CULTURE eventually and clear thinking will prevail. AMEN