Unnatural?

[Jobelorocks]

I just heard this quote and it made me smile. I know it is about homosexuality and not bisexuality, but I figure in probably occurs in these species as well.
"Homosexuality is found in over 450 species. Homophobia is found in only one. Which one seems unnatural now?"

[12voltman59]

That is great--I do have to admit---I never thought of that--but man--what a comeback to the nidjits who say that "homosexuality" is unnatural!!!!

Anyone who does spend time around animals knows that nearly every other sort of animal engages in some sort of homosexual sex.

Some years back I had watched this really interesting documentary program about GLBT people living in the southern portions of Indiana----an area that is largely rural and not exactly a place very accepting of much of anything that is not "normal" let alone non-straight sex.

The film featured lots of non-straight people who had found a way to live there and they featured the story of this one young woman who had lost her parents as I recall, but had been raised by her grandparents----she had gone off to live in some urban area like Chicago maybe even just Indianapolis where she met a female partner--for whatever reason---she really didn't care for living in a large urban area and as a couple, they had decided to return to live in the rural area--the partner had come from a country place herself. The girl was concerned about her grandparents, who were farmers and pretty strict fundamentalist type Christians, would accept her homosexuality and her partner.

Well, her grandparents did come to accept her as she was---she had told her grandma first who was a pretty open lady but she was really worried about telling grandad.

I liked grandpa's response--first--he said he always had figured she really did like girls better than boys and then went on to talk about that even though he didn't understand that "some folks seem to be that way"--the way he figured it though--- people liking to be with those of the same gender wasn't something that is unnatural and bad as they say in church because he said that after being a farmer his entire life---- he knew that every animal type found in a barnyard has sex with other animals of the same gender.

His actual response on that was kind of funny and went something along the lines of "well, any dang fool who knows animals at all knows that they have that kind of sex."

Bottom line on this---grandpa and grandma both accepted their granddaughter as she was and also came to accept and love her partner saying they were glad she found someone great to love and to be with and that they had gotten a great new, granddaughter that they loved very much too in the bargain.

[tenni]

Thanks Voltie for the application of Jobel's statement. It just seems to validate the idea in a practical way.:)

[Realist]

I've often wondered how many folks would be bisexual, if they'd never had moral, or religious dogma, drilled into them?

[matutum]

Thanks Voltie for the application of Jobel's statement. It just seems to validate the idea in a practical way.:)

If it was so natural,then why can't we reproduce from doing this?If it is so natural, then why is there a desease produced from using the wrong hole that will kill us?If it was so natural,then why do people all around the world have to justify their BI-Homo-Lez actions?

[Jobelorocks]

I've often wondered how many folks would be bisexual, if they'd never had moral, or religious dogma, drilled into them?

Probably A LOT especially a lot more among males... for some reason there is more of a stigma for male bisexuals then female.

[Diva667]

If it was so natural,then why can't we reproduce from doing this?If it is so natural, then why is there a desease produced from using the wrong hole that will kill us?If it was so natural,then why do people all around the world have to justify their BI-Homo-Lez actions?

1. Does every sex act have to have reproduction as it's goal? Oral sex and anal sex couplings of M&F's do not produce offspring either. Indeed if the male or female has problems with infertility there is no possibility of reproduction even with Piv sex.

2. There are diseases from every sex act that will kill. Excluding perhaps mutual masturbation. Why is the prostate found in the anus if it is the "wrong hole".

3. Why do all societies have segments of their population that they discriminate against?

Bi & homo sexual relations are found in most primates - including our closest genetic(98% genetic match (http://personal.uncc.edu/jmarks/interests/aaa/marksaaa99.htm)) relatives the Bonobo and the Chimpanzee. What makes you think that Homo sapiens would be different? That is it is found in nature , therefore it is natural. Man is part of nature, not apart from nature.

[12voltman59]

I never heard of matutum---I bet if you were to read his other posts, they would also be screeds of this sort--yet one more "troll" or a new manifestation of one of our perennial ones, I might suggest putting him on ignore even if he's not a troll---I for one don't need to read crap like what he posted up.

In regards to that documentary I posted, I have no idea about the name of it. I was surfing through the channels one time and found the show--it was towards the end and the part I saw was about that girl. I tried Googling the documentary, providing basic information but no luck---sorry.

[matutum]

I never heard of matutum---I bet if you were to read his other posts, they would also be screeds of this sort--yet one more "troll" or a new manifestation of one of our perennial ones, I might suggest putting him on ignore even if he's not a troll---I for one don't need to read crap like what he posted up.

In regards to that documentary I posted, I have no idea about the name of it. I was surfing through the channels one time and found the show--it was towards the end and the part I saw was about that girl. I tried Googling the documentary, providing basic information but no luck---sorry.

So much for u being accepting of other peoples thoughts.I posted to get other peoples thoughts,not to have u bad mouth me.Ur profile says u think of ur self as open minded.U didn't like what I wrote so lets put him on ignore and block him.hmmmm???

[Annika L]

I just heard this quote and it made me smile. I know it is about homosexuality and not bisexuality, but I figure in probably occurs in these species as well.
"Homosexuality is found in over 450 species. Homophobia is found in only one. Which one seems unnatural now?"

LOVE this!! And actually, it is all about bisexuality, since when they say "homosexuality is found in over 450 species", they really mean that bisexuality is...homosexual *acts* are found in a large number of species...I don't think they do followups to see if the same animals also have hetero sex.

[Annika L]

If it was so natural,then why can't we reproduce from doing this?If it is so natural, then why is there a desease produced from using the wrong hole that will kill us?If it was so natural,then why do people all around the world have to justify their BI-Homo-Lez actions?

[...then in a later post...]
I posted to get other peoples thoughts

Funny, it sounded more inflamatory to me than solicitous of people's thoughts. But ok, if you want my thoughts here they are:

(a) Your first question implies that reproduction is a consequence of any natural act. This is patently ridiculous. Lots of natural acts, sexual and otherwise, serve no direct reproductive purpose. Sex for pleasure *has* on the other hand been found to reduce stress levels and prolong life, which does increase one's chance of reproduction. So perhaps there is a connection after all.

But to take another spin, there are at least 450 species that engage in homosexual acts...none of those species can reproduce by these actions. Would you suggest that all 450 species are engaging in unnatural acts? If so, what is your definition of "unnatural"?

(b) Your second question implies that there is a disease produced from anal sex. This is not the case. AIDS does not come from anal sex...anal sex is merely one way to spread it...vaginal sex (yea, even leading to reproduction) is another.

The only malady I'm aware of that comes directly from "using the wrong hole" is that ear-sex tends to correlate strongly with deafness :tong:.

(c) Your third question implies that we have to justify our actions. We don't. Homophobes ask us to. But the OP points out that they are the ones who should be justifying their hatred and intolerance, as it is demonstrably less natural than our seeking after the kind of love and pleasure that appeals to us.

I hope that helps.

[Jobelorocks]

(b) Your second question implies that there is a disease produced from anal sex. This is not the case. AIDS does not come from anal sex...anal sex is merely one way to spread it...vaginal sex (yea, even leading to reproduction) is another.

The only malady I'm aware of that comes directly from "using the wrong hole" is that ear-sex tends to correlate strongly with deafness :tong:.



Actually many think that the initial jump over of HIV/AIDS was an African tribe that ate monkeys. Then after contracting it having gay or straight sex spreads it. Just because it just so happened to enter into the gay community (and then would logically spread to other gay people) doesn't mean that being gay has anything to do with the spread of the disease. It just has to do with who is initially infected and who they choose to sleep with and/or share needles with.

[pepperjack]

I just heard this quote and it made me smile. I know it is about homosexuality and not bisexuality, but I figure in probably occurs in these species as well.
"Homosexuality is found in over 450 species. Homophobia is found in only one. Which one seems unnatural now?"

bisexuality IS homosexuality & dogs are the most homosexual of all species!

[matutum]

LOVE this!! And actually, it is all about bisexuality, since when they say "homosexuality is found in over 450 species", they really mean that bisexuality is...homosexual *acts* are found in a large number of species...I don't think they do followups to see if the same animals also have hetero sex.

I just threw out those questions to see what others had to say.Thanks for the feed back.I didn't know that 12Voltman was so opposed to free speech.But thnaks again for everyones input

[Diva667]

Actually many think that the initial jump over of HIV/AIDS was an African tribe that ate monkeys. Then after contracting it having gay or straight sex spreads it. Just because it just so happened to enter into the gay community (and then would logically spread to other gay people) doesn't mean that being gay has anything to do with the spread of the disease. It just has to do with who is initially infected and who they choose to sleep with and/or share needles with.

There is also a good chance that early Hepatitis B vaccinations are to blame. Combined with grouping large amounts of primates in one area and allowing retroviruses to breed. ( http://www.originofaids.com/ )

[Hephaestion]

There is also a good chance that early Hepatitis B vaccinations are to blame. Combined with grouping large amounts of primates in one area and allowing retroviruses to breed. ( http://www.originofaids.com/ )

The questions arise:

a) why should e.g. ebola and HIV arise in the ape populations of Africa at all.
b) if there is the possibility that transfer to the other ape of interest homo (often not quite so) sapiens why it has not appeared in man naturally.

With #a - it just happens?

With #b the indication that disease transmisison is a punctuated event may mean that the disease becomes enhanced /noticeable / recognised rather than innoculations being the sole cause and therefore iatrogenic (doctor created).

The suspicion of a man mediated situation has been proposed from the outset but unfortunately was often accompanied by bar room claims that it was a population control mechanism associated with secret agents from the USA.

In other words the correlation was notced but the causality aspect and mechanism could not be pointed to. It has taken the analytical techniques of 'today' to shed some light.

[Diva667]

The questions arise:

a) why should e.g. ebola and HIV arise in the ape populations of Africa at all.
b) if there is the possibility that transfer to the other ape of interest homo (often not quite so) sapiens why it has not appeared in man naturally.

With #a - it just happens?

With #b the indication that disease transmisison is a punctuated event may mean that the disease becomes enhanced /noticeable / recognised rather than innoculations being the sole cause and therefore iatrogenic (doctor created).

The suspicion of a man mediated situation has been proposed from the outset but unfortunately was often accompanied by bar room claims that it was a population control mechanism associated with secret agents from the USA.

In other words the correlation was notced but the causality aspect and mechanism could not be pointed to. It has taken the analytical techniques of 'today' to shed some light.

Ebola and SIV (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simian_immunodeficiency_virus) were present in the chimpanzee population long before we even had names for them. Just as FIV (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feline_immunodeficiency_virus) has always been present in the feline population.

It has taken time to trace it this. It seems a much more logical explanation than the "cut and infect" theory or the ingested theory. Because if it resulted from injection of large amounts humans (as in vaccinations) there would be greater chance of an evolutionary "jump" than if you have a very select number of humans involved. I would bet on incompetence rather than maliciousness any day of the week.

[Hephaestion]

Agreed. "Cock-up" vs "conspiracy"? It's "cock-up"

[Jobelorocks]

There is also a good chance that early Hepatitis B vaccinations are to blame. Combined with grouping large amounts of primates in one area and allowing retroviruses to breed. ( http://www.originofaids.com/ )

I have heard about this as well. Both are very plausible.